I know the point of this thread is “ugh, people, man” and it’s not really meant to be engaged with deeper than that, but this is a really bad idea. It would be used to justify racism and ableism and would be a really unpleasant place to be in, too. Karen city, with no one to speak out about it.
Imagine that spike of anxiety at the check-out where you feel rushed because you’re at the front of the line, but instead of it being mostly in your head it’s now a real thing with real consequences. That’s my nightmare
Imagine that spike of anxiety at the check-out where you feel rushed because you’re at the front of the line, but instead of it being mostly in your head it’s now a real thing with real consequences.
For a bit of fun, go visit a LIDL anywhere in Germany
Yeah. In fact, society is full of people who aren’t getting things 100% correct and we just have to be accepting of that. So i don’t like this post.
BUT: the fact that some people don’t get systems like this 100% all the time is proof that we should abolish car dependency and prioritise public safety precautions. [r/FuckCars]
People walking towards each other on the sidewalk usually subconsciously move out of each other’s ways. But there’s a hierarchy to these interactions that you’re probably only aware of if you’re at the bottom of it. White people tend to resist deferring to people of color. White women will rarely defer to anyone, expecting everyone to get it of their way. People of color will defer to white people, etc, etc.
If you break this subconscious hierarchy, people notice and assume you’re being rude or weird. Like if you move enough out of a white women’s way so that she, too, can move a little out of your way so that you both avoid each other (like equals would do), she might just walk into you. Or cuss you out for being rude. Or when I, a white man, defer to a person of color, it trips them up for a second.
Since this hypothetical grocery store is nothing but “don’t break unspoken rules about rudeness or you get kicked out” it means that a black person would need to act meek and submissive in order to avoid scrutiny and thus be able to stay. Meaning the rules would be more stringent against people of color, thus less people of color would be accepted, thus justifying their usual exclusion.
Ableism is super easy. Since this hypothetical prioritizes convenience over people, if you’re slow at something or need more accommodation, you’d get kicked out.
Because the person in question might be an immigrant from a country where our supermarkets aren’t normal, or have a neurological disease you can’t see.
Racism isn’t just when a person thinks their race has superior ability. It’s also when we design systems that statistically harm brown people. In my country a lot of racism is thinly veiled as dealing with illegal immigrants. We used to require that you know how to read in order to vote.
I love how wanting people to be courteous and respectful of others is racist. I just want people to realize that they’re not alone in the world, and to please move your cart to the side of the goddamn aisle.
But that’s still a double-edged sword we’re playing with.
If you want to run towards a an “inevitable conclusion” in the one direction (resegregation… undesirable… are you even alluding to genocide?)
I think it’s fair to do the same in the opposite direction too. Is there no lower bound for human interaction and behavior? Is it wrong to set boundaries for how people treat you?
I like how hyper aware people are for things that could be turned into an avenue for bad things. I think that’s actually more than half the battle. Doesn’t always mean you toss the idea outright, you just know that you gotta watch out.
I, for one, am in favor of a minimal demonstrated set of awareness and capacity to operate a motor vehicle. I also am in favor of not letting people drive drunk. Someone might say this will inevitably turn into a tool of racism. And guess what, THEY’D BE RIGHT! But, the solution probably isn’t to ban cars, or to let anyone drive with no rules of the road and drive drunk.
Yeah, the solution is to orient society in such a way where the operation of a deadly, several ton method of conveyance isn’t a requirement to participate in the world. Public transit, biking, and people-oriented spaces. Fuck cars
Yes, because that would be their job and they wouldn’t be excluded from society if they fail to live up to that. They’d just take public transit like anyone else.
I’m saying “systems need to be oriented towards people and how they act, rather than punishing people for being unable to act in a way that they’re not wired for”. This hypothetical grocery store punishes people for being minorly thoughtless to spare other people the indignity of having to say something or silently suffer with the minor inconvenience.
It takes a human interaction with low stakes and turns it into a systemic interaction where harm to people becomes an abstract thing, so harm tends to become more prolific.
I could get behind you on this if the post was saying that all grocery stores must have that limitation. In the subway example, it’d be like saying that the only labour that exists is being a subway driver. The calculus changes when, like you said, it’s mandatory.
If this idea was implemented and had any amount of popularity it would spread everywhere like wild fire cause it’d be one more thing to crush the poor with cater to white people who can’t be fucked to talk to people don’t want to be inconvenienced. People usually don’t have much choice in what stores they have access to (see food deserts)
Not what I’m fucking saying, but good try. Something being used to justify racism isn’t saying “this is on its face racism” its saying “racists will use the stringent, strict rules of this place to deny people of color access to this space”. All of these complaints are things that everyone does to some extent, you just get frustrated by them when you’re probably already frustrated.
People of color take up more space in white people’s heads, so they get more policing of their behavior even if it isn’t justified. A group of white boys being loud in a grocery store get head shakes and “boys will be boys” comments. A group of black boys being loud in a grocery store get followed around by security and white women clutching their purses.
Also fun how you sidestepped the ableism I brought up in that same sentence. Cause you know there’s no fucking argument there, huh?
I thought both arguments were stupid and so I chose to not continue typing. I guess everything can be used to discriminate against someone, so fuck it, let’s do nothing! Yawn yawn yawn.
Wow, false dichotomy much? I get it, you liked the idea and think me attacking it is like me attacking you. Once you grow up, you’ll realize that not everything is about you.
Yes. I made the choice to be like that rather be perceived as polite. Apologies that that wasn’t clear. I’d rather spend my time thinking through things rather than making my words nice for others. I’m neurodivergent, I’ve spent a lifetime trying to mold myself into the box of etiquette and it drove me mad and made me quiet. I’m choosing now to say what needs to be said in how I need to say it.
Like saying that something would be used to further racism and ableism and then checking the people who don’t like to be confronted with that idea.
Not sure why you felt I attacked you, but that’s fine. We’ve obviously got different opinions on the matter, and that’s okay. If it’s because I called the argument stupid, I didn’t mean for that to be a reflection of you, it’s just the exact kind of false dichotomy you’re accusing me of here, and it’s tired and overused here and on Reddit.
Bruh, I got autism. This person decided to create a hypothetical grocery store instead of just saying “what’s the deal with people in grocery stores? Why are they always in my way?”
You make a hypothetical system as a funny observation, I’m going to shit on the hypothetical before anyone thinks its an actually good idea. Cause people do that shit. Like a whole lot. Check the person who’s trying to defend it as a good idea for an example
Demi Adejuyigbe made a parody of racism in his stand-up special “Demi Adejuyigbe is going to do one (1) back-flip” where he said all Latina women were 6’2" and people started parroting that shit back to him with no introspection on what the fuck they were saying.
Cool, I also have autism. So does like 80% of the users on this network. Ok?
Thanks for the whacky anecdote. That and the original post are bad jokes.
“People can’t drive!”
“What’s the deal with TALL LATIN WOMEN”
They deserve zero attention and this post sucks. I am sorry you had to spend emotional energy on this instead of anything else. You are allowed to downvote and move on too. There’s too much of this garbage engagement bait to take issue with each individual “comedian” on micro blogs or comedy “specials”, or whatever. Including my dumb take comment, btw.
Cool, I also have autism. So does like 80% of the users on this network. Ok?
Thanks for the whacky anecdote. That and the original post are bad jokes.
“People can’t drive!”
“What’s the deal with TALL LATIN WOMEN”
They deserve zero attention and this post sucks. I am sorry you had to spend emotional energy on this instead of anything else. You are allowed to downvote and move on too. There’s too much of this garbage engagement bait to take issue with each individual “comedian” on micro blogs or comedy “specials”, or whatever. Anyway, eugenics bad.
I know the point of this thread is “ugh, people, man” and it’s not really meant to be engaged with deeper than that, but this is a really bad idea. It would be used to justify racism and ableism and would be a really unpleasant place to be in, too. Karen city, with no one to speak out about it.
Imagine that spike of anxiety at the check-out where you feel rushed because you’re at the front of the line, but instead of it being mostly in your head it’s now a real thing with real consequences. That’s my nightmare
The racial trait of being a moron in a grocery store hah
For a bit of fun, go visit a LIDL anywhere in Germany
Yeah. In fact, society is full of people who aren’t getting things 100% correct and we just have to be accepting of that. So i don’t like this post.
BUT: the fact that some people don’t get systems like this 100% all the time is proof that we should abolish car dependency and prioritise public safety precautions. [r/FuckCars]
Agreed. Fuck cars and accept that other people aren’t going to be perfect and that that’s okay for them to be.
It’s fine, they will go to the usual stores.
Separate but equal, eh? Gonna introspect on that, or nah?
Someone in this thread went the extra mile and even called them “the shitty” stores. Which is nice. Brings the warm and cozies, that /s
But how?
People walking towards each other on the sidewalk usually subconsciously move out of each other’s ways. But there’s a hierarchy to these interactions that you’re probably only aware of if you’re at the bottom of it. White people tend to resist deferring to people of color. White women will rarely defer to anyone, expecting everyone to get it of their way. People of color will defer to white people, etc, etc.
If you break this subconscious hierarchy, people notice and assume you’re being rude or weird. Like if you move enough out of a white women’s way so that she, too, can move a little out of your way so that you both avoid each other (like equals would do), she might just walk into you. Or cuss you out for being rude. Or when I, a white man, defer to a person of color, it trips them up for a second.
Since this hypothetical grocery store is nothing but “don’t break unspoken rules about rudeness or you get kicked out” it means that a black person would need to act meek and submissive in order to avoid scrutiny and thus be able to stay. Meaning the rules would be more stringent against people of color, thus less people of color would be accepted, thus justifying their usual exclusion.
Ableism is super easy. Since this hypothetical prioritizes convenience over people, if you’re slow at something or need more accommodation, you’d get kicked out.
What a fascinating work of fiction you’ve just created. You should use it to write a really shit short story
Such a great piece of fiction that the phenomenon I just recounted has been lived by real people before
https://www.reddit.com/r/blackladies/comments/1202192/asked_reddit_why_white_people_dont_move_for/
Am… am I god?/s
So your proof is that a couple of people on Reddit also think that?
Because the person in question might be an immigrant from a country where our supermarkets aren’t normal, or have a neurological disease you can’t see.
In that example it’s not racism, i think
Racism isn’t just when a person thinks their race has superior ability. It’s also when we design systems that statistically harm brown people. In my country a lot of racism is thinly veiled as dealing with illegal immigrants. We used to require that you know how to read in order to vote.
Immigrants are not always “brown”.
Nor were all illiterate people.
I love how wanting people to be courteous and respectful of others is racist. I just want people to realize that they’re not alone in the world, and to please move your cart to the side of the goddamn aisle.
Can you read? He’s talking about enforcing a separate system, not simply “wanting people to be courteous”
You’re completely missing the point. The idea can be fine on it’s face, but it will very quickly be used to otherize the undesirables.
That’s entirely true.
But that’s still a double-edged sword we’re playing with.
If you want to run towards a an “inevitable conclusion” in the one direction (resegregation… undesirable… are you even alluding to genocide?)
I think it’s fair to do the same in the opposite direction too. Is there no lower bound for human interaction and behavior? Is it wrong to set boundaries for how people treat you?
I like how hyper aware people are for things that could be turned into an avenue for bad things. I think that’s actually more than half the battle. Doesn’t always mean you toss the idea outright, you just know that you gotta watch out.
I, for one, am in favor of a minimal demonstrated set of awareness and capacity to operate a motor vehicle. I also am in favor of not letting people drive drunk. Someone might say this will inevitably turn into a tool of racism. And guess what, THEY’D BE RIGHT! But, the solution probably isn’t to ban cars, or to let anyone drive with no rules of the road and drive drunk.
Yeah, the solution is to orient society in such a way where the operation of a deadly, several ton method of conveyance isn’t a requirement to participate in the world. Public transit, biking, and people-oriented spaces. Fuck cars
Fine. The person operating the subway train. Should they be drunk? Should they have needed to demonstrate competency in operating a subway?
Yes, because that would be their job and they wouldn’t be excluded from society if they fail to live up to that. They’d just take public transit like anyone else.
I’m saying “systems need to be oriented towards people and how they act, rather than punishing people for being unable to act in a way that they’re not wired for”. This hypothetical grocery store punishes people for being minorly thoughtless to spare other people the indignity of having to say something or silently suffer with the minor inconvenience.
It takes a human interaction with low stakes and turns it into a systemic interaction where harm to people becomes an abstract thing, so harm tends to become more prolific.
I could get behind you on this if the post was saying that all grocery stores must have that limitation. In the subway example, it’d be like saying that the only labour that exists is being a subway driver. The calculus changes when, like you said, it’s mandatory.
If this idea was implemented and had any amount of popularity it would spread everywhere like wild fire cause it’d be one more thing to
crush the poor withcater to white people whocan’t be fucked to talk to peopledon’t want to be inconvenienced. People usually don’t have much choice in what stores they have access to (see food deserts)Not what I’m fucking saying, but good try. Something being used to justify racism isn’t saying “this is on its face racism” its saying “racists will use the stringent, strict rules of this place to deny people of color access to this space”. All of these complaints are things that everyone does to some extent, you just get frustrated by them when you’re probably already frustrated.
People of color take up more space in white people’s heads, so they get more policing of their behavior even if it isn’t justified. A group of white boys being loud in a grocery store get head shakes and “boys will be boys” comments. A group of black boys being loud in a grocery store get followed around by security and white women clutching their purses.
Also fun how you sidestepped the ableism I brought up in that same sentence. Cause you know there’s no fucking argument there, huh?
I thought both arguments were stupid and so I chose to not continue typing. I guess everything can be used to discriminate against someone, so fuck it, let’s do nothing! Yawn yawn yawn.
Then shut the fuck up and leave the conversation.
I appreciate your input.
Wow, false dichotomy much? I get it, you liked the idea and think me attacking it is like me attacking you. Once you grow up, you’ll realize that not everything is about you.
Sorry, I meant if you grow up.
You’re really aggressive, man
Yeah, I tend to be perceived that way. I’d rather be seen as aggressive than be a polite asshole
You tend to be perceived that way because you act that way.
Yes. I made the choice to be like that rather be perceived as polite. Apologies that that wasn’t clear. I’d rather spend my time thinking through things rather than making my words nice for others. I’m neurodivergent, I’ve spent a lifetime trying to mold myself into the box of etiquette and it drove me mad and made me quiet. I’m choosing now to say what needs to be said in how I need to say it.
Like saying that something would be used to further racism and ableism and then checking the people who don’t like to be confronted with that idea.
Not sure why you felt I attacked you, but that’s fine. We’ve obviously got different opinions on the matter, and that’s okay. If it’s because I called the argument stupid, I didn’t mean for that to be a reflection of you, it’s just the exact kind of false dichotomy you’re accusing me of here, and it’s tired and overused here and on Reddit.
Why is Lemmy like this
On an Idiocracy meme in shitposts someone was talking about not supporting eugenics.
Probably because Idiocracy unintentionally supported eugenics which is a really bad message.
Oh my god I’m still stewing over that exact same post. It’s been like a week.
Bruh, I got autism. This person decided to create a hypothetical grocery store instead of just saying “what’s the deal with people in grocery stores? Why are they always in my way?”
You make a hypothetical system as a funny observation, I’m going to shit on the hypothetical before anyone thinks its an actually good idea. Cause people do that shit. Like a whole lot. Check the person who’s trying to defend it as a good idea for an example
Demi Adejuyigbe made a parody of racism in his stand-up special “Demi Adejuyigbe is going to do one (1) back-flip” where he said all Latina women were 6’2" and people started parroting that shit back to him with no introspection on what the fuck they were saying.
Cool, I also have autism. So does like 80% of the users on this network. Ok?
Thanks for the whacky anecdote. That and the original post are bad jokes.
“People can’t drive!”
“What’s the deal with TALL LATIN WOMEN”
They deserve zero attention and this post sucks. I am sorry you had to spend emotional energy on this instead of anything else. You are allowed to downvote and move on too. There’s too much of this garbage engagement bait to take issue with each individual “comedian” on micro blogs or comedy “specials”, or whatever. Including my dumb take comment, btw.
Anyway, eugenics bad.
Cool, I also have autism. So does like 80% of the users on this network. Ok?
Thanks for the whacky anecdote. That and the original post are bad jokes.
“People can’t drive!”
“What’s the deal with TALL LATIN WOMEN”
They deserve zero attention and this post sucks. I am sorry you had to spend emotional energy on this instead of anything else. You are allowed to downvote and move on too. There’s too much of this garbage engagement bait to take issue with each individual “comedian” on micro blogs or comedy “specials”, or whatever. Anyway, eugenics bad.
The Karens are part of the problem. They would 100% be in the shitty store after the first trip.
Lol, you think Karens would be kept out of Karen heaven. Lmao, even.